Corruption expert discusses government integrity

Prof. Doc. Hansjörg Elshorst.

Prof. Dr. Hansjörg Elshorst is one of the founding members of Transparency International (TI),  an organization dedicated to fighting government corruption, was member of its Advisory Council until 1997. From 1998 to 2002 he served as Managing Director, and from September 2002 until October 2005 as Chairman of TI Germany. Presently he is Chairman of the Advisory Council of TI Germany and Senior Advisor on Poverty, Development and Corruption in the International Secretariat of TI. Since October 2003, Elshorst teaches at the Potsdam University in the area of International Politics - since 2006 as Honorary Professor.  He was born in 1938 in the Ruhrvalley and raised in Dortmund. He studied German Literature, History and Philosophy and received a PhD in German Literature. Interested in journalism, Elshorst wrote articles during his studies and was afterwards trained as an editor in a regional paper for one year. He then studied and received a MA in Sociology and Economics at Louisiana State University. From 1967 to 1969 Elshorst taught Sociology at the Catholic University in Santiago del Estero, Argentina. During this time he was strongly involved in the work of community based organizations and NGO’s. After returning to Germany in 1969, Elshorst worked as an Assistant to a SPD-deputy in the Bundestag. In 1974 he was involved in the foundation of the German Agency for Technical Cooperation (GTZ), which he headed until 1995. 1996-1997 Elshorst joined the World Bank in Washington as Senior Advisor, focusing on the promotion of partnerships with local organizations and other development agencies.   

Yemen Observer (YO): -What are the most common problems that countries face in fighting corruption?
Hansjörg Elshorst : I am a founding member of Transparency International (TI), and we “invented” transparency. I have also been the head of TI in Germany during  the past five years. I do not necessarily have a general overview of problems that countries face with fighting corruption, and, generally speaking, this is a very difficult question to answer.  My feeling is that problems vary in different parts of the world. But there is one common thing: corruption--in the beginning, before you really focus on it--is not considered a problem, like is the case of Germany and other industrialized countries. People think corruption is not present in their political or economic systems until they actually learn that they are wrong.  Another common phenomenon is that corruption is taken as something normal, something you would not have to worry about because everybody knows and everybody does it. Thus, the difficulties of identifying corruption as a problem are the first common obstacles. In my understanding, corruption was not a common subject in Yemen until five years ago; it was always there but people did not talk about it. So to  discuss and be informed about it is the first step towards accepting that corruption is a real problem. 

YO: What do you think about establishing governmental bodies to fight corruption, like the Supreme National Authority for Combating Corruption (SNACC) in Yemen and other countries where corruption is pervasive within the government?
H.E: Many countries have Anti-Corruption Agencies, which have not necessarily been very successful. The problem is that corruption is taken as a single unit. The government, civil society and business are not one unit and are not uniformly against corruption or, for example, concerned about preservation of water or whatever. There are people fighting for these issues and there are others that are not.  Most governments try to sort out differences, so to have somebody in the government who is responsible by  mandate to fight corruption could be a good thing just as it could be a good thing to have somebody fighting in the government for the preservation of water or for improving the health system. Of course, there are other people in the government that waste sources or burden the health system supporting actions that may be dangerous to the public health, like environmental damages.  In essence, I think it is normal to have governmental agencies to fight corruption, but I also think that it is normal that sometimes these agencies are not able to fight corruption by themselves and need political figures in the government to play specific roles in order to support the agency’s work.  

YO: -How should agencies fighting corruption cooperate with the media? H.E: For us, TI, people in the media fighting corruption are a core ally because transparency is one of the major ways of fighting corruption: making it obvious and opening it to everyone’s eyes. In addition, the fact that the media can attack specific people involved in corruption is an important weapon, and an action that really works. Thus, the media has a major role in making things transparent. 

YO: -How much attention do international organizations like the World Bank, GTZ and others pay to the culture of a country when they provide with plans or aid for fighting against corruption? Basically, do they take into account the country’s culture in their plans?
H.E: In TI, we define corruption as the misuse of entrusted funds for personal use. Now, what you consider misuse or culturally acceptable misuse varies from place to place. But there are core areas that go beyond the borders of a country. In your country, Yemen, if somebody promotes the expenses of consuming qat, somebody may come and say this can be considered as misuse because it negatively affects the national economy and the water resources.  For example in Germany, the deputies took side jobs in private companies in addition to their work in the parliament. In your country this might not be a problem because deputies may have to do that in order to live, but they have to be transparent about it, which was not the case in Germany. So based on each country’s culture, international organizations definitely should not come with ready-made programs; instead, they should work with the government, the civil society, and the business sector in programs that are appropriate for the country.  Furthermore, corruption sometimes is due to culture, sometimes to the economic situation; it could be called “survival corruption” because sometimes people need to take bribes because they make insufficient salaries for some countries have very difficult economic situations.  

YO: -What are the conditions that a country should enjoy to make its fight against corruption effective and serious?
H.E: Early on we worked out a program that we call the “integrity system,” i.e. a system to secure integrity. That system even names 15 points such as a good parliament, a good judiciary, free media, public control like COCA in Yemen and many others. If you ask me which of these is the most important, again I would say it depends. For example, in Singapore they do not have any democracy, no free press, but they have a very repressive system which suffices to control public servants. They are highly paid and if there is a little bit of corruption, they are fired, so they do not need to be corrupt and should be careful because they can lose their job.  In your country and in other countries like Yemen, I would say that you need a system that can control the economic and political powers. That system can be the parliament, it can be the media, it can be an independent governmental organization like COCA, or it can be an organization like SNACC. It all depends on its degree of independence and focus on core areas, and in not thinking that these organizations have to do everything, like people expect of SNACC and want it to monitor everything. That is bad for the organization because the point is that they should focus on certain areas and not in all areas. 

YO: -What should be done from other sides, in addition to the efforts and work of Anti Corruption agencies?
H.E: Civil society and business have to form a collation against corruption. We believe that in the government, media, civil society and business, those who have a reason and an incentive to fight corruption should join their efforts.  YO: -What do you think about high-ranking officials like MP’s who are engaged also in private businesses but in whose interest it is to fight corruption?  H.E: In some poor countries where MP’s do not have decent salaries to make their living, sometimes they need to have some other jobs, but if such is the case, this has to be done in a transparent way. It is necessary to make it transparent, specifically if there is a conflict of interests. This is thus a call for freedom of information, a call for transparency in the conflict of interests. When you want to become an MP, you have to be transparent about what businesses you are involved in. It has to be clear whether your responsibility in the government has something to do with those businesses. So the most important thing is to be transparent in all the activities you are involved. Once you are transparent, you have people who can control you. 

YO: -What are the requirements in a legal system of a country that will help in the fight against corruption?
H.E: Let me repeat it again, TI has its integrity system and has integrity system studies. They look at the legal side and you would not believe how many corrupt countries have a perfect legal system. A lot of donors tell them that they must improve their systems and so they write the law and they pass it to the parliament, then the law is beautiful but the law’s enforcement is not. So one thing is that is there is a political will, but is there some tradition of transparency and integrity within the judiciary system or the judiciary is corrupt itself? That is a very important part of the problem. So having well-crafted laws is not enough.  Let’s put it in another way: when we had this coming together of West and East, there were countries that did not have any laws because their tradition in the communist system used to regulate things differently. In Germany they had more philosophers than they have lawyers. So, there you start with a market economy needing laws. Now, in most countries of the world is more or less fine, I do not know much about Yemen. What is not fine is the resources in terms of public prosecutors specialized in corruption or the time the courts dedicate to deal with such difficult things like corruption in Yemen. Thus, the priority is not so much in making new laws but in implementing them.        

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